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-   -   Cuore L251 - Noisy Engine and Loss of Power (http://www.daihatsu-forum.de/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=41423)

terios 07.09.2013 20:26

Cuore L251 - Noisy Engine and Loss of Power
 
My Cuore L251 is EJ - DE, manual transmission.

Click here for more info about the car http://www.daihatsu-forum.de/vbullet...ad.php?t=41411


The issue is regarding an abnormal noise coming from the engine (I suppose) which appears only when I rich the revs needed to upshift to the next gear.

E.g.

When I shiftup from 1st to 2nd gear at around 30km/h
2nd to 3rd at 45km/h
3rd to 4th at 75km/h

I know it would be better if I could give rpms but I don't have the counter (this another topic I want to post regarding the upgrade of the dashbord) but I can say it's likely 3500rpm and above.

This noise happens with engine either cold or warm. Moving or just accelerating from the under hood.

This noise desappears when idling or reving in law ranges.


One thing else, I have a luck of power when I shift to the the 5th gear. The speed stops at 105km/h, or just up very slowly. But if I continue acceleration keeping the 4th gear it can reach +/-140 km/h!!

This two problems may be related may be not.

terios 07.09.2013 20:35

I wonder what are the valve clearance for this engine EJ-DE? and if the inspection/adjustment should be done hot and/or cold?

Also what are the normal intervals for clearance inspection as per the manufacturer?

NB: I'm not saying this is the problem for sure. Please think with me and I believe there are some specialists here.

bluedog 07.09.2013 20:56

I'll give a brief summary of all that in German:

Es geht um einen L251, ausnahmsweise mit EJ-DE, manuelles Getriebe.

terios stellt abnormale Motorgeräusche fest bei höheren Drehzahlen, jeweils vor dem schalten, wie er sagt.

Drehzahlmesser ist keiner vorhanden, aber die Geräusche treten auf beim Schalten:

in den 2. Gang bei 30km/h,
in den 3. Gang bei 45km/h,
in den 4. Gang bei 75km/h.

Ausserdem fehlt im 5. Gang die Leistung, er sagt, man kommt nur bis 105km/h im 5. Gang. Bleibt man im 4., kann man bis >140km/h schaffen. Zusammenhang mit dem Geräusch nicht zwingend, aber möglich, meint er.

Daher möchte terios wissen, wie oft man bei dem Motor das Ventilspiel einstellen muss, und wie die Werksvorgabe dafür ist. Weiter interessiert, ob man das kalt oder warm einstellt.

Mithilfe und Mitdenken sind erbeten. Er ist sich nicht sicher obs am Ventilspiel liegt. Es könnt auch was anderes sein.

bluedog 07.09.2013 21:04

For the first: For the EJ-VE, (I don't think there is a difference to the EJ-DE at this point), there is a recommendation to check valve clearence every 80'000km, if I remember correctly. (Has been a while since I last looked that up in the Maintenance Manual...) For the rest you'll have to rely on others, Maybe Sirion M100 or Cuore L701 (pre facelift), which had EJ-DE.

terios 08.09.2013 09:39

Thanks bluedog for all your continoues support. It's so helpful for me and for every one reading us as far as the forum exists!

I feel that things will be very tight inside with DOHC and 12V in such small space?!

Someone has done the job before? any pictures? what are the tools needed to inspect clearance and eventually change the shims??

NB.Bis: I'm not saying this is the true diagniostic but it is just something I think I should do now with 182.000 km since 2006.

Kokomiko 08.09.2013 12:37

Mein Englisch ist nicht so berauschend, mechanisch bin ich auch nicht so gut drauf, aber verstehe ich das richtig, dass die Ventile nie eingestellt wurden ?
Zudem erscheinen mir die Schaltpunkte recht hoch, bei 30 vom ersten in den zweiten ? Da schalte ich in der Regel bereits in den dritten Gang. Merkwürdig finde ich, dass es im 4. bis 140 geht, aber im 5. keine 110 erreicht werden. Möglicherweise ein Problem mit dem Getriebe ?
Wie gesagt, Technik ist nicht wirklich meine Welt.

bluedog 08.09.2013 18:32

Das finde ich auch merkwürdig.

Die Schaltpunkte sind zu spät, jedenfalls für die Strassenverhältnisse Europas. Wie es auf ner algerischen Sandpiste zu fahren ist, weiss ich nicht. Ich kann mir aber vorstellen, dass man dann rausholt was drin ist, besonders wenn der Motor so schwach zieht, dass man nicht über 100km/h kommt.

@terios: There is enough Space to work.

You can measure the shims, but to replace them, the camshaft has to be taken out.

Kokomiko (and me too) are astonished about how late you are upshifting. At 30km/h, he would shift into 3rd gear already. Further, Kokomiko asks, if valve clearence was never checked before.

If no, that alone would not be alarming to me, but in combination with the high revolutions driving you obviously do, it could be at high time to check valve clearance.

You can find tons of pictures from inside that engine here:

http://www.daihatsu-forum.de/vbullet...benringe+rotzi

That is a tread, where our higly estimated user Rotzi documented a piston rings replacement, and he ended up in a more or less full engine restoration.

An Idea from myself: Did you check if the fuel pressure is ok? Because once, when I had a weak fuel pump, I noticed a slowly increasing lack of power too... but that would not explain the engine noise.

Is the engine running smoothly, or is it bucking? If it doesn't run smootly, I'd try a replacement of the spark plugs... but this is for sure not the reason of the noise from the Engine too.

terios 08.09.2013 18:50

I will come back with answers next post, now want just to briefly comment about my upshifting. Yes, indeed, even me I was surprised when I'd read the Owner's manual of my Terios II (3SZ-VE) there was too low rates:

2nd up to 30km/h
3rd up to 50km/h
4th up to 70km/h !!!

I was surprised because I'm not used to this on my previous Yaris Toyota (precisely Echo) which needs more revs to shift and then more comfortable to run in traffics without too much shifting down and up...

I think these recommendations are just for fuel consumption, less noise... other ways, the real performance of the engine are still acceptable till 6000 rpm (for me all what is not red is green!)

when I say the engine is noisy I’m referring to other Cuores and not just because the noise bothers me.

bluedog 08.09.2013 19:06

Zitat:

Zitat von terios (Beitrag 493733)
I was surprised because I'm not used to this on my previous Yaris Toyota (precisely Echo) which needs more revs to shift and then more comfortable to run in traffics without too much shifting down and up...
[...]
(for me all what is not red is green!)

So, what you got now with your EJ-DE engine is exactly the price high revolutions and less shifting costs!

Make sure, you're ready to pay the same price for that at your Terios too, or get used to a more civil driving style with lower revolutions. Not only for fuel consumption reasons.

Zitat:

Zitat von terios (Beitrag 493733)
when I say the engine is noisy I’m referring to other Cuores and not just because the noise bothers me.

That was, at least for me, clear. I quite supposed that.

terios 08.09.2013 19:17

Want to precise that this car is, at least, 3rd hand. I bought it for my sister when the car was at 173.000 km.

First time, I thought, not only me, that these 3 cylinders engines are all noisy by default! Now, I'm trying to fix my error even my sister has "civil driving style" and quiet rarely does notice the noise.

bluedog 08.09.2013 20:07

I don't blame you for that, anyway, its your choice of how to treat engines. It's just that it's you too, who has to live with the consequences... It's just a "no wonder" from my side and a warning towards you, because I suppose you might like to save some time and money, perhaps. So, you do not really have to apologize. It's only a hint, to say, that this driving style is not quite normal.

But at least, make sure you use very good engine Oil and you change it regularly... that is, then, a must.

terios 08.09.2013 20:34

Upshifting at 2500 - 3000 rpm is good, but at 4000 - 4500 is not bad too. We are still in the tolerable range of the engine, I'm convinced about that. My previous Yaris doing already 160.000 km still runs perfectly at very high revs with nearly zero oil consumption, no smokes, never failed or been major repaired.

May be you're right when talking about small engines < 1.0L.

Now, back to the facts of this car:

First time I changed the oil engine in a dealer shop, they put semi-synthetic 10W40. I was not satisfied about it, and then decided to change it again, for a full synthetic 5W40, but this time I've putted before an additive for cleaning the engine before the change. The result is kind of oil very black and thick... this car seems to be very bad treated before!

bluedog 08.09.2013 20:39

Is that cleaning stuff still in there?

terios 08.09.2013 20:42

No, I put it just before the change with the old oil, warm up the engine 15min and then discharged. Now, is the pure oil only.

Something wrong?

terios 08.09.2013 22:35

Zitat:

Zitat von bluedog (Beitrag 493730)
Das finde ich auch merkwürdig.

Die Schaltpunkte sind zu spät, jedenfalls für die Strassenverhältnisse Europas. Wie es auf ner algerischen Sandpiste zu fahren ist, weiss ich nicht. Ich kann mir aber vorstellen, dass man dann rausholt was drin ist, besonders wenn der Motor so schwach zieht, dass man nicht über 100km/h kommt.

@terios: There is enough Space to work.

You can measure the shims, but to replace them, the camshaft has to be taken out.

Kokomiko (and me too) are astonished about how late you are upshifting. At 30km/h, he would shift into 3rd gear already. Further, Kokomiko asks, if valve clearence was never checked before.

If no, that alone would not be alarming to me, but in combination with the high revolutions driving you obviously do, it could be at high time to check valve clearance.

You can find tons of pictures from inside that engine here:

http://www.daihatsu-forum.de/vbullet...benringe+rotzi

That is a tread, where our higly estimated user Rotzi documented a piston rings replacement, and he ended up in a more or less full engine restoration.

An Idea from myself: Did you check if the fuel pressure is ok? Because once, when I had a weak fuel pump, I noticed a slowly increasing lack of power too... but that would not explain the engine noise.

Is the engine running smoothly, or is it bucking? If it doesn't run smootly, I'd try a replacement of the spark plugs... but this is for sure not the reason of the noise from the Engine too.

To answer your questions: Kokomiko and bluedog.

I'm not sure if the previous owners have adjusted already the clearance or not? or even if they openned the engine or not? Do you know how to confirm about that?

How to know about tue pressure of the fuel? I'm sure of one thing, till 100km/h the car is quiete fast.

Is it the knock sensor who makes the car slowing down at high revs because, for exemple, of bad fuel? I'm using unleaded 95.

bluedog 09.09.2013 00:52

As far as I know, there is no way to determine, if valve clearance was checked in the past. You're lucky if you have precise maintenance record for that.

But with no other clue, assume it was never done.

That engine does not have a nock sensor. That is made with the spark plugs, and besides that, the engine needs only a 91octane unlead fuel as minimum requirement.

So, if you suspect something to be wrong with the nock sensing, then first would be new spark plugs.

Or you could take a look at ignition timing. To do that, you would set the Bridge at the OBD-Socket according to the Graphic under the engine hood, which you photographed, and then use a ignition timing stroboscope (sorry, I could not find the official expression for that in the dictionary - I hope, you guess what I mean...).

Something I forgot to translate before: Are you sure the clutch/transmission is ok?

terios 09.09.2013 08:58

Zitat:

Zitat von bluedog (Beitrag 493751)
That engine does not have a nock sensor. That is made with the spark plugs, and besides that, the engine needs only a 91octane unlead fuel as minimum requirement.

Could you please more explain that point, how this engine protects itself from knocking especially when we know its compression ratio is quite high 10:1?

You know in my country regulations are not severe as in Europe; so may be even 95 is not enough. But the other Cuores, with less noisy engines are still using the same fuel as me! Well, when I come back home I'll try to add a kind of fuel octane booster, and see what happens... ok?


Zitat:

Zitat von bluedog (Beitrag 493751)
Or you could take a look at ignition timing. To do that, you would set the Bridge at the OBD-Socket according to the Graphic under the engine hood, which you photographed, and then use a ignition timing stroboscope (sorry, I could not find the official expression for that in the dictionary - I hope, you guess what I mean

Unfortunately, I don't have Timing light and not well equipped at all. I'll try a scan and see. Thanks.

Zitat:

Zitat von bluedog (Beitrag 493751)
Something I forgot to translate before: Are you sure the clutch/transmission is ok?

The clutch is good (well, I feel the release bearing hissing a bit) do you suspect a bad 5th gear? Don't know how to check about it.

terios 09.09.2013 09:17

By the way, the link you gave me is very interesting in terms of pictures of course (the content is a bit confusing for me lol) Is it mendatory to change the head cylider cover seal after clearance inspection?

bluedog 09.09.2013 11:56

The nock protection is based on ion current measurement technology. I do not know more about that, then that it needs the correct spark plugs to work.

But anyway, I don't suspect that too low octane fuel is the problem as long as you use 95octane labelled fuel. Even outside Europe, the difference should not be that great. It is more probable, that you have contaminated Fuel or Water in it or so. But even that should not be a Problem, as long as the Engine runs smoothly. It may just rise fuel consumption...

But if there is to much dirt or Sand in the tank, that could be a Problem, but I do not considder that very probable.

To check that, you would be forced to look at the fuel pump inlet. There is a strainer at the Inlet... But to get to it, you would be forced to take the pump out of the tank and for that, you'd have to drain the fuel and detach the fuel tank first.

So it is maybe easier to measure fuel pressure, which is done by mounting a pressure gauge intoto the fuel supply hose. Measure that near the engine. You need to know what pressure you get right at the engine, not near the feeding pump in or just outside the fuel tank.

But, I recommend to replace the spark plugs first, if not done yet. That's far easier.

Lunch time. More that afternoon.

bluedog 09.09.2013 13:53

I do not suspect a problem with the 5. gear, because you said, the noise you hear is related to rpm and not to a specific gear. If, then it should be the clutch, which I do not believe in. If it was the clutch, you would have problems in lower gears too, e.g. from the 3rd on or so.

And, last, but not least: That would not explain a rpm-related noise from the engine that leads you to suspect the valves to make noise.

bluedog 09.09.2013 14:52

To the valve clearence check and the needed gaskets:

Don't confuse cylinder head gasket and valve cover seal.

When checking/adjusting valve clearance, you do not remove the cylinder head, and therefore you don't need a cylinder head gasket. You don't even touch that.

You only remove the valve cover and if you need to replace shims, you take out the camshaft(s). Cylinder head still stays in place then.

People who must know that recommend, however, to replace the valve cover sealing with a new one. Otherwise, the Engine might spill oil trough the reused one.

But that brings me to an other good Idea, for finding the reason of the power loss.

Do a Compression test. That can show you, if all valves are undamaged (sealing off the combustion chamber properly) and if the cylinder head gasket is ok.

Complete loss of Compression on one Cylinder would indicate, there is a valve burnt up, or a leak in the cylinder head gasket. As long as all three cylinders have more or less the same pressure value, the valves and the Cylinder head gasket are ok, and you just have to take care of the valve clearence itself.

terios 09.09.2013 15:59

Zitat:

Zitat von bluedog (Beitrag 493769)
Don't confuse cylinder head gasket and valve cover seal.
.

I didn't. May be just the term I used was not clear "head cylider cover seal"

let's just briefely summarize all the tests mentionned till now:

- Fuel octane booster
- Fuel pressure check
- Timing light test
- Engine scan
- New sparks (they are new from Daihatsu dealer, I'll try to send you the mode)
- Compression test
- Valve clarance inspection

Coming back later.

bluedog 09.09.2013 16:59

I'd propose to do it in the following order:

- new spark plugs
- ignition timing test
- Engine control unit memory scan (read out error reports, if any present)
- check ignition coils
- compression test
- Fuel pressure check
- valve clearance inspection
- Octane booster

I come to that order by asking, what could cause engine noises.

For that it needs a bit more than bad fuel or low fuel pressure, so lets do that after we run out of more probable Ideas...

First, lets take care of the ignition. That takes the power out of the fuel. Then, see if the engine mechanically is ok. That means a compression test.

Give it a set of new spark plugs, just to make sure, ignition isn't the problem, and because you don't need any special tool. A 16mm plug spanner will do...

Then, if the problem still persists, check ignition timing. I think, that must be ok, because if not, you would not get >140km/h out of the Engine... it would maybe not even start. But, it is a test which doesn't take to much time and any mechanic should be able to do that.
If the engine Timing is wrong, there must be a problem with the timing belt or with the camshaft/crankshaft position sensor. You can't adjust ignition timing, so if it doesnt right, you know where to look for the reason...

If that is ok, go to the Daihatsu dealer and let him read out the ecu's memory. If there's errors reported, you get a hint where to look for the solution.

At this point, only the ignition coils rest from the ignition System.

If they are ok, lets think about fuel pressure. If the mixture is too lean, you have power loss, and if you have the pressure gauge and know what to do, it is about 30min. of work only, and you don't need to buy any gasket or other spare parts just for test.

So, either you look after the mechanical part (valve clearance, proper compression rate) but you'll need a pro for that, because you probably do not have the tools... It would mean some real work, anyway, whilst before, everything was quick and easy to check;

or you can try octane booster, now that you are sure the ignition must work.

If nothing helps, there is still the MAP sensor left...

terios 10.09.2013 08:26

Sounds like a good plan, Thanks.

We have to wait till next week when I'm home back.

terios 04.12.2013 10:39

Well, there is no much update to come up with till now...

Meanwhile, I just want to open a subsidary subject:

How much is the engine oil consumption on your cuores L251: xx L/1000km ? please to provide the oil used too.

knowing that between "Full" and "Empty" indications on the oil gauge, there is 0.8 L, I can say my engine is consuming about 0.2 L/1000 km. Using 5W40 full synthetic (API SM)

Is it normal?!

(EJ-VE or DE will not make difference here I assume)

LSirion 04.12.2013 10:47

It´s normal. Maybe a little bit high for a EJ-Motor, but this is because of the higher rpm you drive. Less rpm, less oil consumption.

terios 04.12.2013 11:09

It's not my car, I drive it very rarely. Besides this, in my mind oil consumption is more likely to happen in city driving with little rpms and to much stops and goes...

I'm not fully disposed to regulary inspect this car, that's why I'm not really sure of the 0.2l/1000km, sometimes it seems to be higher than that.

Is it normal to get a "low" level before you rich 5000km? the most tricky thing in all this, there is no smoke, neither leaks, neither oily air filter, where it goes then??!

terios 04.12.2013 11:13

Just for info, I've met already two cuore's drivers and shared with me the same observation: at relatively high mileage > 150.000 km their cars consumes oil without smokes nor leaks!

bluedog 04.12.2013 16:04

that is a known issue, due to very narrow oil drain holes inside the piston ring grooves.

When the oil becomes hot enough (right at the piston is approximately the hottest spot within the engine, which is reached by the engine oil), it tends to plug up those tiny but important drain holes.

Another possible cause for oil consumption are the valve seat rings. That would cause oil smoke after an idle-phase, when you turn up the engine. It's quite more probable, that its the first, above mentioned cause.

25Plus 07.12.2013 04:22

My cuore (215000 km) has now an oil consumption of about 0,1 l/1000 km (perhaps higher). Until 180000 km the oil consumption was about 0,1-0,2 l/15000 km. But the whole drivetrain is getting louder with more and more vibrations when driven unter 2000 rpm.

I don´t know the problem but I think that the drivetrain is not built to reach much more than 200000 km. The gearbox also gets louder and the second gear synchronization is getting worse, also the clutch.

But since I like the car it will get a new drivetrain some day and only be my sunday- and good weather car ;-).


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